I had no real come back on this and allowed things to cool off. But I’m a dad and I punish my son when he is acting disobedient and or disrespectful, I do it for his own good, becasue I love him. Momzilla, I am comfortable with the imagery that the scriptures use and the description is clear, it is obvious that discipline is a central part of the Christian walk and is often unpleasant beyond simple instruction. A “misquote”. Hebrews 6:4-6. My past tutor always use to accuse me of not summarising smaller lol. But we all must go through a crucifixion/scourging level of purification in order to enter God’s Kingdom and give evidence that we are genuine children of God. I think you are right Earl the Holy Spirit testifies of Jesus and he is all truth if you can see him past the sacrifice you can see the father, In the same way Abraham saw past his sacrifice and saw God. You may say that the resources are available to look up the meanings of the Hebrew and Greek and also that their are many other resources such as commentaries, dictionaries and concordances that will help in your own personal translation. Escape to Reality is a reader-funded website. What form does your punishment take? For example discipline brings to mind spankings and hitting to many people. He really is just trying to rescue his own and set us free from sin and its affects. Galatians 2:20 Help me understand this…has God changed His nature? Because the Israelites had 14 centuries of practice living exactly like that and failed spectacularly. Save: $18.00 (40%) Buy Now. It seems to me that we might just as easily conclude that the wrong verse is the one on the right. The only way we can be children of shame is if we haven’t received Jesus which took our shame. He wants to instill to us that we do not belong to sin anymore but we are now in Christ. I’m here to tell you that God never, ever, ever scourges his kids. Dan. Big difference. God is a good Father. Paul: Well I did not exactly say that God scourged me. Your exegesis brings out the light of how our heavenly father will treat His children. We don’t need to be beaten to want to sin no longer. I appreciate your concern. I heard an illustration that really gave me peace. Law in regards to what is pleasing to God. read וּכְאֵב, μαστιγοῖ δέ, and He scourges. The root word of Mastigoi means to chew or gnaw. The thing is, do you or any one of us really believe it? There are different degrees of discipline to be had and scourging is one of them. Since there may be children reading this, I won’t describe what the Roman whip could do to a body of flesh and blood, but if you have seen The Passion movie, you will know. You just have to understand what it really means Kevin. Paul, I am looking forward to the follow up. When you say the word discipline, I hear the word train, as in discipling, but I think you mean punishment, as in God sometimes punished people in the Old Testament. Stuff Jesus Never Said, Comment Policy When there is something in scripture that is out of God’s character, it is best to ask the Holy Spirit for help–He is the author after all. Hebrews 6:11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, (NASB: Lockman). He stopped me from walking to go on a train that crashed and killed a number of people and he stepped in my left leg and moved it slowly by a fraction of a secon to stop me being killed by a maniac that drove as thou he was in a race track. The word scourges has been translated differently than what the Holy Spirit wanted. As far as I can tell, they all say stuff like this: “Scourges” means literally to flog or scourge… and entails any suffering which God ordains… God’s chastisement includes not only his “whipping” us so to speak for specific transgressions (but even here with the idea of remedial not retributive intent), but also the entire range of trials and tribulations which he providentially ordains and which work to mortify sin and nurture faith, ultimately serving to conform us to the image of His Son… Notice that “scourges” is in the present tense, which indicates that this is not a one time event, but can be expected in the lives of those who are truly God’s spiritual children. Hebrews 12:6 in all English translations. Scourging does not save us, but like the works that must follow faith to prove the faith is genuine, so too must scourging level of discipline. Let’s put the original Proverb and the Hebrews version side by side and see if you can spot any differences: The first three lines of the original Proverb are faithfully reproduced in Hebrews 12. Now if we DIED WITH Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. Because when the hologram is lighted at the correct frequency, we can see the whole image. It really means to lovingly correct someone as a beloved son or daughter. It shouldn’t be there. Today it’s not the sort of thing civilized societies would inflict even on the worst criminals. Lorenza, please understand that discipline and scourging are very different things. Peace to you. This is the training we need to run the race we must run with endurance (Hebrews 12:1-2). What a wicked and evil generation. Paul, can you please address this or lead me to a link on your website that answers this. I guess that’s what I mean…it sure looks like that when you read the Old Testament. Does this mean we should go on sinning? He doesn’t care enough about His own children to correct them and help them to get back on the narrow path. So any ‘tongue lashing’ God might do, He would use scripture or His Word, not a whip, not a sickness, not suffering, etc. Thank you again for boldly pressing into and helping the body of Christ grow in grace! People are suffering because of their belief in Christ by the hands of confused men who have a free will. We quickly revved up the conversation to include that he felt God punishes us when we sin. We should begin by taking note of the fact that Hebrews 12:6 is a quotation from Proverbs 3:11-12: 11 My child, do not despise discipline from the Lord, and do not loathe his rebuke. “See to it that no one misleads you. Did Paul through God inspired scripture correct and rebuke the believers he wrote too? I have children, and i delight in all of them, but that does not stop me from discipline them, when i have to, we as humans make a big mistake, only thinking that because God loves us, he want punish us, ask Israel? Jesus’ flogging does not take ours away, but rather delivers it to us as the process of cleansing and sonship. Also the word ‘chasten’ should be ‘corrects’…and it’s used in vs 9. ya,Chris,I dont think surprising him,i imagine that type of situation had Abraham sweating,unless God gave me the Faith I dont know if i could do it,just in defense of Ishmael God did bless him and he became a nation,which may turn out to be a problem. Thank you Paul for another great truth! How do we know what sin is? The more I grasp his grace, the more I want to read it. To Chastening is to discipline however to flog is to whip. It’s full of treasure and it’s my favorite book. But if its, scourging and chastising us if we stray; Christ wooes us back with love than chastise us thats for sure. Sheesh. 6 ‘And you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are in no way least among the rulers of Judah, for out of you will come a ruler who will shepherd my people Israel.’” 10 . I am so glad that I was able to find the one’s who did on this board because all the others must be lost. The old has now gone but, until renewed, our minds still struggle with that garbage. Law in regards to not being sinful which the law points out. The Gospel in Ten Words God does not teach us a lesson by battering us down. You know, like original language, commentaries, computer bible study, etc… But if there is a flaw in the photograph, we lose part of the image God is trying to show us. The original Greek word for scourges is mastigoō. Not law as in works for salvation but law as in obedience to god. (I wrote a post about it here.) Do you scourge him with whips because, if so, you are a wicked father who should go to jail. Scourge would be to physically assault my children using the harshest methods possible. Do the math and you will see.The answer is in the translation when correctly translated there is only a fault is so small and would be easily made when measuring with a rope. I quote, “All our sins, (past present and future) were born by Jesus on the Cross. Actually the verse is correct. read 22:15 .The Bible is speaking of correction not abuse. (Heb 12:6, Farley’s paraphrase). Not to mention How the Lord deals with His church in Corinth. When Adam sinned, God didn’t punish him. God uses scripture to discipline His children. When God chastens or disciplines us, it is evidence of His love for us. You are trying to justify the idea that God does not put his people through incredible pain and chastising….He does and it is clear that he will…After all many are dying, this very day in foreign lands for their beliefs in Christ…Scripture is clear that he allows us to be chastised and scourged…. God told us all scripture is useful for correction, for discipline, for teaching, etc. What do you think Kevin, do you believe this? Did Jesus not correct and rebuke his apostles? The Word says yes – IF WE ACCEPT INNERANCY OF SCRIPTURE. Hebrews was written in Hebrew, or Nevertheless, the Holy Spirit has used the English Bible to give me revelation about my wonderful Father and for that I will always be grateful. The standard required by the law isn’t better, it’s perfection (James 2:10). Kevin, you must see Christ on the Cross being judged cuz of our sins and smitten with our sicknesses. Book Summary. Thanks for your input, greatly appreciated and very encouraging, Hebrews 12:5 And you have not kept in mind the word which says to you as to sons, My son, do not make little of the Lord’s punishment, and do not give up hope when you are judged by him; According to him, God scourges us in both testaments. because He commands fathers not to frustrate or anger their children. Israel, sure, but that’s only because they foolishly asked for it at Mt Sinai. Now, With what you are saying will tell me that you believe that Ananias and Sapphira were not saved. As far as what chastening means or doesn’t mean, you are looking at your concordance for guidance as you stated. This is good news. God scourges us repeatedly. If you value Jesus’ words over a prophet, any prophet, even John the baptiser,(the greatest prophet) you will requalify all misrepresentations of God as coming from a strange spirit. (remember they were all erased at the cross not when we commit them) I do not like the idea of “misquote” either but the verse, as is, does not quite fit in with other very clear and concrete scriptures either. Blessings, P. Philip Stephano dear, read Isaiah 53. In the book of Proverbs it says spare the rod and spoil the child.. 13:24 he that loves his son will chasten him… Do you love your child..f 8 If you were not getting this training, as all of you are, then you would be not sons but bastards. It’s not the Septuagint – it’s Jesus! If I take Hebrews 12:6 at face value, then God gruesomely tortures everyone he accepts as his son. The problem is that many words have many meanings and you can change the meaning of scripture by inputting a different meaning. In Christ, we are NEW. Read 1 Kings 7:23 There is definitely translation issues in the scripture. Religious obedience that gets praised rather than sinful ugliness that gets stoned is still the flesh’s attempt to be good, and it gets us no closer to God. By what God has shown us through the scriptures. Hi Tyler He came to save. Stoning doesn’t fix sin… never did. The hand of their abusive patent the land… open your eyes other claims to truth been. 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